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Grateful Dead 11/16/70
Fillmore East, New York, NY
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Source # 17361 Other Sources
Entered by dr.unclear
Checksums shn-md5 , st5
Disc Counts 1 / 2
Media Size
Date Circulated
Date Added
05/23/2003
09/05/2004
Source Summary SBD:MR>Revox deck (model unknown): 10" ? track Reel @ 7.5ips > Revox B77 playback deck > Alesis Masterlink ML9600 > CD > EAC > Cool Edit 2000 > SHN. A>D by Bill Gadsden. encoding Dave Winters. (Note: Other shn sets assign this music to 11/23/70). 
  Archive
Source Information - Download Text | Download Zip
Grateful Dead
Fillmore East
New York, NY
11/16/70 Partial Show

Source:
SBD:MR>Revox deck (model unknown): 10" ? track Reel @ 7.5ips>
Revox B77 playback deck>Alesis Masterlink ML9600>CD>
EAC>Cool Edit 2000>SHN.  

A>D by Bill Gadsden.
Cool Edit 2000 was used for minor glitch removal.
CDWav was used to retrack both discs.
EAC(secure mode, offset corrected), seekable shorten encoding with MKW, and sector boundaries verified via shntool by D. Winters.

Disc 1
01.  Bill Graham intro>Casey Jones                        [05:01]
02.  Me and My Uncle                                      [04:37]
03.  House P.A. Music: Elton John, //Honky Tonk Women//   [02:49]
04.  //Friend of the Devil                                [02:14]
05.  Cold Rain and Snow                                   [06:04]
06.  King Bee                                             [07:17]
07.  China Cat Sunflower >                                [05:46]
08.  I Know You Rider                                     [04:42]
09.  Stage Talk/Steve Winwood Arrives On Stage            [02:07]
10.  Hard To Handle *                                     [08:07]
11.  //Big Railroad Blues * +                             [05:13]
12.  Not Fade Away > *                                    [09:18]
13.  Goin' Down the Road Feelin' Bad > *                  [05:44]
14.  Not Fade Away *                                      [02:52]
Total Time:                                               [71:56]

Disc 2
01.  Stage Talk                                           [02:00]
02.  Frozen Logger                                        [01:26]
03.  Mama Tried                                           [03:37]
04.  Truckin' > +                                         [05:47]
05.  The Other One +                                      [11:24]
06.  Uncle John's Band +                                  [07:04]
Total Time:                                               [31:21]
                                                                      
* Steve Winwood on Pigpen's Hammond Organ. Steve Winwood also provides vocal accompaniment on NFA>GDTRFB>NFA and 1st vocal verse of NFA.
+ Will Scarlet on harmonica.

Notes:
D1T03 - Analog distortions and channel dropouts from unknown source,
possibly a loose plug in the master reel to reel deck.
D1T04 - Approximately 30 seconds missing.
D1T11 - First few seconds clipped.
D1T14 - Some distortion of Steve Winwood's vocals at the very end.
As with any 30-year-old tape, various analog gremlins and anomalies exist.

----------------------Background-----------------------------------

This is the concert formerly thought to have taken place on 11/23/70 at the Anderson Theater in New York City.  This show has been shrouded in mystery and confusion over the last 30 years ever since it first entered circulation in 1973.  However, fresh research has unveiled what is most likely the true story behind this classic Grateful Dead show.

On 11/14/70 at Frank Zappa's Fillmore East Late Show, Grace Slick came out on stage, on behalf of Bill Graham, to announce an unscheduled concert featuring the Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane the following Monday, November 16th.  As it turned out, the Airplane were in the middle of breaking up and Grace was pregnant.  So instead of the Airplane, Hot Tuna filled in to share the bill with the Dead. A few days later, on November 18th and 19th, Traffic played at the Fillmore.

There are several pieces of evidence which now point directly to the
"11/23/70 Anderson Theater" show being correctly identified as Fillmore East 11/16/70.   1) Traffic has been confirmed, in a letter written by the Kleinhans Music Hall, as having played at the Kleinhans Music Hall, Buffalo, NY on 11/23/70.  This firmly places them out of New York City on that date. Thanks to Greg Shaw for this help.  2) Bill Graham introduces the Dead.  The identification of his voice is clear, as never before, on this new transfer. Bill Graham and the owner of the Anderson Theater were not friendly with each other and Bill Graham would never have introduced the Grateful Dead in the Anderson Theater. 3) A 1:55 snippet of Hot Tuna playing Hesitation Blues precedes the Dead's show on the first generation 10" reel. 4) After Bob Weir sings the Frozen Logger off-mic, several people on stage can be heard attempting to get Jack Casady to join in saying, "Hey Casady, why don't you play" and "Hey Jack, hey Jack, c'mon up".  Hot Tuna played on 11/16/70 at the Fillmore and they are not known to have played at the Anderson Theater. 5) An eyewitness who attended the 11/16/70 Fillmore show clearly recalls Steve Winwood and Jorma Kaukonen sitting in with the Dead.  6) Music was commonly played over the P.A. between sets at the Fillmore to promote upcoming shows.  Elton John played at the Fillmore East the following weekend, November 20th and 21st as the warm up for Leon Russell.  This was his first New York City appearance. 7) On page 382 in his book Long Strange Trip, Dennis McNally mentions this show as being from the Fillmore East, 11/16/70. 8) Finally, the 7" reels, from which all previously circulating copies were made, are labeled (albeit misdated) "Fillmore Nov 2, 70". Therefore, the misnomer "Anderson Theater, 11/23/70" must have occurred sometime after the tapes entered circulation in 1973. It should be noted that the Grateful Dead did perform at the Anderson Theater on 11/23/70, however, no verified recordings of that event apparently circulate.

The order in which the songs occur has often been confused throughout the years. Breaks do occur in the recording so it cannot be said with absolute certainty that the order is correct. However, the current order is taken directly from the first generation 10" reel, making the likelihood of rearrangement negligible. If anything, any re-ordering occurred subsequent to its release into circulation in 1973. The placement of Elton John's recording of Honky Tonk Women played over the house P.A. after only two songs remains a mystery. There is also an AUD fragment from 11/16/70 of Good Lovin' with Jorma, Jack and Papa John Creach sitting in. Exactly where this jam fits in is not known. Clearly, the music we have does not represent the entire show.

Precisely what guest musicians appear in this recording and which tunes they play on may never be known. Any further intelligence on the matter would most certainly be welcome. Steve Winwood took over Pigpen's Hammond organ beginning with Hard To Handle and he can clearly be heard through the end of Not Fade Away. Will Scarlet from Hot Tuna plays harp and his playing is evident during Big Railroad Blues, Truckin'>The Other One and Uncle John's Band. Three separate cheers arise from the crowd prior to Hard To Handle; the second of which is for Steve Winwood's arrival on stage. Who or what precipitated the other two cheers is impossible to tell. In the process of deciding what to play prior to the commencement of Mama Tried, Phil Lesh and
Bob Weir can be heard to say, "What songs do you guys know?" "Yeah, you guys name a tune." From this we can deduce that at least two other guest musicians were present on stage, however none of them can be discerned in the Mama Tried that follows. Other than Will Scarlet's harp work during Truckin'>The Other One and Uncle John's Band, an organ can be heard in the first few minutes of Truckin', but then mysteriously vanishes from the mix.

This new transfer represents a significant upgrade to all previously
circulating versions. It is a direct A>D transfer from the original, first generation 10" ? track reels, as opposed to the 7" reels which Bill Gadsden originally copied in 1973; and again transferred A>D via Alesis Masterlink in 2000. The 7" reels are one, if not two, generations further removed from the 10" first generation source. Thanks to Bill Gadsden who diligently researched the accuracy of the actual venue & date of this show as Fillmore East 11/16/70 and sourced out the first generation reel.

It is my conviction that the myth of this show having taken place at the Anderson Theater on 11/23/70 can now firmly be put to rest. If anyone can offer factual evidence to the contrary, please contact me. Most of all please enjoy this all-time classic show!

Chuck Reynolds
[email protected]
May 8, 2003
Show Checksums
shn-md5
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st5
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Comments
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Other Sources (comments)
SBDMR> DAT> CD-r> EAC> SHN;... (3) flac16; SBD > RR > ?... (0) flac16; Partial;... (0)
Date User Comment
06/04/2003 Paul McFadyen I take the text file's statements re the 1st gen reels on board, but I still do not find the set order convincing - the Elton John p.a. tape is not contiguous with the surrounding tracks & at its' close there is considerable crowd noise, as though the band were coming on for the first time.
Also, Jerry clearly warms up for Mama Tried after Rider, yet this song doesn't occur until much later in the set.
Finally, it seems unusual for the Winwood/Wood/Scarlett guest slots to occur so early in the set, especially considering they play the brand-new NFA>GDTRFB>NFA medley, which always served as a show closer (5/26/72 excepted).
Anyone got any other ideas?
06/05/2003 joey wow time ta dust off the ole tape and give her a listen!
06/09/2003 Jeff this seems to be missing from the info:

This was his first New York City appearance. 7) On page 382 in his book Long Strange Trip, Dennis McNally mentions this show as being from the Fillmore East, 11/16/70. 8) Finally, the 7" reels, from which all previously circulating copies were made, are labeled (albeit misdated) "Fillmore Nov 2, 70". Therefore, the misnomer "Anderson Theater, 11/23/70" must have occurred sometime after the tapes entered circulation in 1973. It should be noted that the Grateful Dead did perform at the Anderson Theater on 11/23/70, however, no verified recordings of that event apparently circulate.
06/09/2003 jeff this too:

The order in which the songs occur has often been confused throughout the years. Breaks do occur in the recording so it cannot be said with absolute certainty that the order is correct. However, the current order is taken directly from the first generation 10" reel, making the likelihood of rearrangement negligible. If anything, any re-ordering occurred subsequent to its release into circulation in 1973. The placement of Elton John's recording of Honky Tonk Women played over the house P.A. after only two songs remains a mystery. There is also an AUD fragment from 11/16/70 of Good Lovin' with Jorma, Jack and Papa John Creach sitting in. Exactly where this jam fits in is not known. Clearly, the music we have does not represent the entire show.

Precisely what guest musicians appear in this recording and which tunes they play on may never be known. Any further intelligence on the matter would most certainly be welcome. Steve Winwood took over Pigpen's Hammond organ beginning with Hard To Handle and he can clearly be heard through the end of Not Fade Away. Will Scarlet from Hot Tuna plays harp and his playing is evident during Big Railroad Blues, Truckin'>The Other One and Uncle John's Band. Three separate cheers arise from the crowd prior to Hard To Handle; the second of which is for Steve Winwood's arrival on stage. Who or what precipitated the other two cheers is impossible to tell. In the process of deciding what to play prior to the commencement of Mama Tried, Phil Lesh and
Bob Weir can be heard to say, "What songs do you guys know?" "Yeah, you guys name a tune." From this we can deduce that at least two other guest musicians were present on stage, however none of them can be discerned in the Mama Tried that follows. Other than Will Scarlet's harp work during Truckin'>The Other One and Uncle John's Band, an organ can be heard in the first few minutes of Truckin', but then mysteriously vanishes from the mix.

This new transfer represents a significant upgrade to all previously
circulating versions. It is a direct A>D transfer from the original, first generation 10" ? track reels, as opposed to the 7" reels which Bill Gadsden originally copied in 1973; and again transferred A>D via Alesis Masterlink in 2000. The 7" reels are one, if not two, generations further removed from the 10" first generation source. Thanks to Bill Gadsden who diligently researched the accuracy of the actual venue & date of this show as Fillmore East 11/16/70 and sourced out the first generation reel.

It is my conviction that the myth of this show having taken place at the Anderson Theater on 11/23/70 can now firmly be put to rest. If anyone can offer factual evidence to the contrary, please contact me. Most of all please enjoy this all-time classic show!

Chuck Reynolds
[email protected]
May 8, 2003


06/15/2003 Barry Smith I recently got a hold of these discs and although I certainly agree that the Dead played on 11/16/70 fillmore East, the Elton John bit does NOT belong anywhere in this show.

Although granted "music was commonly played over the P.A. between sets at the Fillmore to promote upcoming shows," the HONKY TONK WOMAN that is heard was recorded on 11/17/70. As Stagger Lee pointed out above, EJ released an LP on UNI Records in 1971 called "11-17-70" a record of his radio show that aired on (you guessed it!) November 17, 1970 the day AFTER the Dead/Tuna concert at Fillmore East!!!!!!!!!!!

Well the Honky Tonk Woman that abruptly interrupts the post ME & MY UNCLE tuning is most definitely this version from the 11/17/70. Not only that, the sound quality of this bit is totally different than the nice clean soundboard of the Grateful Dead. Anybody can tell that this Elton John bit was added in either to deceive or to confuse. Anyway, there was no Elton John house music during the 11/16/70 Dead/Tuna show at Fillmore East, and HONKY TONK WOMAN should be ELIMINATED from the first disc.

06/15/2003 Barry Smith Please ignore the "As Stagger Lee pointed out above", part of my above comment, I originally posted my comment about this show at:

http://drnet.net/cgi/bb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Tapeboard&number=4&start=here
06/21/2003 Matt Vernon Bill Gadsden posted this remark on a Dead Net Central Discussion forum:

"I've seen a post at etree that has convinced me that the Elton John version of Honky Tonk Woman playing over the house p.a. that occurs after Me & My Uncle should not be there. It has been pointed out that this version of Honky Tonk is from the Elton John release 11-17-70, which was an album produced from the in-studio FM-simulcast on that date. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that this 1st gen. 10" reel copy was made many months after the 11/16/70 show and that it was recorded over a later dated F.E. recording with the Elton John P.A. music on it, and that it was not properly erased. It should be removed from the 11/16/70 show. I should have realized this when I transferred the reel, but I was more focussed on the fact that Elton John was playing at F. E. the following weekend and that it made sense that his music was on the house p.a. rather than where the version of Honky Tonk was from - the 11-17-70 record. "


09/20/2003 Tom Bashara I thought this was an interesting comment from Jim Powell on Deadlists.com:

"I ran into Will Scarlet last night at Ashkenaz Dead Night where he is a
sometime attendee & it finally occured to me to ask him about the "Anderson
Theater 11/23/70" Hells Angels Benefit, since he plays harmonica on the
Uncle John's Band.

He clearly remembers the gig, as a Hells Angels Benefit, & remembers playing
on the Uncle John.

He is absolutely positive that this gig WAS NOT at Fillmore East. I asked
him if it was at the "Anderson Theater" and he says he doesn't remember the
name of the hall but he is certain it wasn't Fillmore East."
04/28/2004 Lewis/Klitschko Has anyone tried carbon dating?
06/25/2004 Wonderful recording!
Just curious - if the concensus is that the date is 11/16/70, where does the "Good Lovin'" fit in, why is it missing on this recording, and why was it not at least added to the tail of this etree version?
BTW: I remember having a "Good Lovin" on the 2nd (inferior) copy of this show I got some 30 or so years ago on reel to reel.
06/28/2004 Scott Allan It has recently been suggested that Good Lovin' is from the Hot Tuna set on 11/16/70, with members of the Dead sitting-in. See www.deadlists.com for details.